Monday, January 05, 2009

The on going Silver Certificate default story

I’ve had a number of requests to revisit the plight of our fellow investor who has an unredeemable Silver Certificate from the TD bank. I’ve received two updates and it would appear the stupidity continues.

The OSC says it’s not their problem, but did provide other contacts

RCMP says the same thing, apparently investigating allegations of bank fraud is someone else’s jurisdiction or just not worth their effort. Perhaps contacting the OPP instead?

Papers and news services are not interested in picking up the story; I have contacted various new organizations as has the holder of this worthless certificate and no one seems to care. If you are in Canada perhaps you could relate the issue to your local papers or help out by nagging the larger outlets to investigate the issue. If you have certificates raise the concerns about them being legitimacy with your local MP/MPP and nag your bank Manager, we need to turn up the heat on this issue.

TD securities got involved and were no more responsive than TD was. You’d think they’d just order some 100 oz bars from NWT mint and settle the certificate, but no they don’t have to, the certificate says so and they are not accountable to anyone.

A complain to IIROC (Investment Industry Regulatory Organization of Canada) is being written but once again I don’t know if this is their responsibility and since this is a SELF regulatory body for investment dealers and they just formed in 2008 I can’t see them shitting on one of their members. Organizations that self regulate are often just fronts to make industry appear to be responsible but do little.

Our friend is still trying to get satisfaction from TD and suing has not been taken off the table. In fact I think the longer this drags out the more it becomes a point of honour over money.

I should look into one of those online petition generators, I’ll get back to you once I get something set up.


Anonymous said...

A post in two parts .. too long, I guess.

Thanks for the additional info.

I'm not surprised that no one wants the challenge of taking on the banking system over a single silver certificate; perhaps if you could muster a class-action suit for 1000 similarly disgruntled customers .. but you'll never be able to find them and organize. Even if you did, the lawyers would keep the meter running until any return would be cents on the dollar.

As I understand it, it's not like TD isn't willing to settle; they just want the easy way out (like COMEX) by settling this future paper, in cash. As LoW suggests, this is becoming a "principles" argument and you can't find anyone, who can ~do~ anything, who will listen.


Anonymous said...

What current cash-out value is TD offering for this 100oz certificate? What value is TD putting on the silver they don't have? After all, the 'value' of your silver can be ridiculously low, when you know you'll never have to deliver it. The great silver fraud...

Too bad you couldn't find a 'big fish' (some rich dude with a few thousand of these certificates who doesn't yet know they've been swindled) to ".. me, too" behind!


Anonymous said...

Hi, I'm following up your first majestic post...I received my first order today. Like most other people my order was not acknowledged for more than a month. When it did, I changed my order because the price had changed and 10 oz bars became available. It then took a little over 2 weeks to get to my door which was reasonable considering new years.

Anonymous said...

Continued...Overall I was happy. One the negative side, the delay in acknowledging the order was annoying, as well as the response to it. (basically that they were sorry it MAY have been a few weeks late due to high volume). It was closer to a few months than a few weeks.
Anyhow it averaged out to about $17.00CAD an oz after shipping which is very good for a small timer like me on the east coast where it is not readily available.

By the way, do you know anything about this:

Carter Apps, dabbler of stuff said...

Halifax,, the regulations to record all metal transactions is just fucking stupid. the person going in and buying less than 100 oz of silver or a 1oz or fractional gold coin is not involved in money laundering..
If you walked in with 50k in a bag and asked for gold I'd be suspicious but this looks just like a fishing expedition to see who is hoarding.


My first order from majestic never did get filled , the second was confirmed in a couple of days after I emailed them asking for my confirmation. The response was kinda snotty
:"We would appreciate that valued investors such as yourself commend us for selling a portion of our silver in the form of ingots and rounds."

In other words ignore mediocre service and be gratefull we sell you any at all, and don't you dare bitch about it.

Anonymous said...

I got the same impression from the service. However it saves me enough money and shipping time and payment convenience that it is worth it for me at this time and would do it again. (as someone who buys less than 25 oz at a time, often much less).

Anonymous said...

Here's a good deal on some Maple Leafs. I think this is better than Scotia Bank

CHR said...

Well .. Majestic is now officially off my list given I simply refuse to be treated like a turd when paying premium prices for common goods.
The new reporting requirement (which I am guessing comes into effect at a pretty low dollar value, like $1000) is just more government meddling .. thanks George W! I wonder if the next step will be to start to make it illegal to carry cash, like it is in the US? I'm a gambler and gambling is a cash business. These reporting/carrying rules in the US make that ~legal~ diversion look much more like illegal activity; having to prove that the large whack of cash in your pocket is a gambling stake rather than drug money.
APMEX: Those are US prices without shipping. Add 25% exchange and exorbitant international shipping costs. Much less of a great deal, then! How come they can sell Canadian mint product in the US cheaper than most are selling the same products for in Canada?


Anonymous said...

Well I received my majestic rounds and they are as good a quality as you would expect from NWT mint and pretty too. Beyond the rounds I like that nice uniform stackable 1 kilo bar on their site. If prices are still low by tax refund time I just might have to use them again despite my unease with their service. Having them ship from BC was nice in that I did not have to deal with the customs stupidity.

I hope rather to find some of those Lakota rounds in the secondary market, just about the prettiest rounds I've ever seen.

CHR said...

Good to hear of another successful delivery from Majestic .. what method of pre-payment have you been using?

Pretty is good but assay is better. Given that an assay shows these coins to be pure (and I do not doubt that), then pretty isn't worth a premium when comes to silver and the eventual resale of these pieces. When the fiat currencies start to go, I doubt there will be ~any~ difference in what a generic round (like these) versus a Maple (RCM) will fetch, unlike what we see now when trying to buy. The extra premium for a 'brand name (JM/Engelhard)' round/bar just reduces your overall ROI in the transaction.

LoW .. can you provide more detail on the new anti-laundering legislation and particularly at what dollar value this will start to apply? Is this just suggested or is it already a done deal? URL anybody?



St_Clair said...

Apmex does NOT ship to Canada at all. Not for any cost, they simply refuse our business.

Got an email quote from First Majestic as well, nice that they don't charge Paypal extra fees. A lot easier to pay (and cheaper for us) than money order or bank wire.

NWT Mint is currently the best source for Canadian buyers, imo.

CHR said...

St_Clair: It would be nice if we had a standard set of transactions that could be quoted out for each of these new mints. It's essential to be able to compare the price and costs to a ~Canadian~ address. Something like these:

small: 5 rounds
medium: 5 10oz bars
large: 5 100oz bars

The ~price~ is fairly predictable and comparable but it's all the other handling costs that get added before you get to open the box. These are much harder to see! These could be shipping, order surcharges, customs and duty charges like the FedEx US to FedEx Canada "hand off" fee at the border, payment costs (wires, PP),
cost you found that you weren't expecting, packaging costs (tubes vs bags), etc.

Anyone care to detail the costs for a recent online purchase to start the comparisons?